(3 episodes)
A comment in response to this post
"You probably should have taken some classes in understanding different cultures before you went over there.
There are plenty of "English-speakers" who use that exact terminology. Different cultures say different things- who are you to be the judge of what is correct or incorrect? Because it is in the dictionary??? If everyone spoke using words and meanings strictly from the dictionary, that would include some pretty boring conversations and no differences between cultures and areas. I am guessing you are looking for cookie-cutter speakers throughout the world?
For example, many people say "Hey mama" to any adult woman. "whats up sister??" "Hey brother" These are all common in the English speaking world and pretty much everyone would understand it is not a "literal translation"."
There are plenty of "English-speakers" who use that exact terminology. Different cultures say different things- who are you to be the judge of what is correct or incorrect? Because it is in the dictionary??? If everyone spoke using words and meanings strictly from the dictionary, that would include some pretty boring conversations and no differences between cultures and areas. I am guessing you are looking for cookie-cutter speakers throughout the world?
For example, many people say "Hey mama" to any adult woman. "whats up sister??" "Hey brother" These are all common in the English speaking world and pretty much everyone would understand it is not a "literal translation"."
Of course, thank you for the comment. Blogs are for voicing your opinion and experiences, and that's exactly what's happening here.
To start of my response, I'm going to point out how it was very thoughtful of you to say "English-speakers," as opposed to "native English-speakers." Even putting the term in quotes was a good idea. If that sentence read "There are plenty of native English-speakers who use that exact terminology," it would hold a different meaning. For example, I speak Chinese (to what degree is besides the point) and therefore am a "Chinese-speaker." Of course I'm not a native Chinese-speaker, so I would never assume that what I say is accurate, nor would I ever expect a native Chinese-speaker to accept my translations as more correct than theirs.
I have to commend how, while accusing me of over-playing my role as an English language Teacher, you were also able to point out one of the staples for an English learner. In response to your questions "who are you to be the judge of what is correct or incorrect? Because it is in the dictionary???" I have to say "yes" to the latter (and I assume the former is rhetorical). I've provided for you here and here a link to two of the most recognized English proficiency exams in the world, taken by many English learners in Taiwan. They are for a large part the ultimate goal for many Taiwanese, as the scores can help them get into universities around the world, get high-paying jobs, etc. I honestly don't think I can take your implied advice and be more accepting to what many consider to be "slang" definitions, or to be more accurate, definitions that don't appear in the dictionary. I would have a hard time keeping a tutoring job if I told a business executive studying for his TOEIC exam, "Well, I mean, I don't say it, and it's not in the dictionary, but I think some small town in northern Canada might use this definition for this word, so, you know, on your TOEIC exam, keep your eyes open for this option as well." The bottom line is that if you are learning English, an English Dictionary is your best bet for an accurate definition.
In your comment, you also mentioned that " Different cultures say different things-" which, due to a lack of language specificity, is quite obvious. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and agree with you on the point that "Different native English-speaking countries say different things." As far as many Taiwanese English schools are concerned, many only accept applicants who have a passport from The United States, Canada, Australia, England, New Zealand, or South Africa. Some of them even request that a specific dialect be taught (I have English and South African friends who have been asked to change their accents). It can be even further generalized that even among these 6 countries, only either American English or British English is spoken. Although I see the distinction between the two, I'm fully aware that we have more than two choices of English in the world. It can not go without saying that even within one of these English-speaking countries, the lexicon changes from state to state, city to city, and even from household to household. It would be foolish to not recognize that even through all of these subtle differences, there is a common thread that can always be referred back to and understood by everyone, which can be located in the dictionary.
It should be noted that neither Taiwan nor China are included in the list of countries whose applicants can teach in Taiwan. It is, of course, because they predominantly speak Mandarin Chinese. English and Chinese developed and evolved quite literally on opposite ends of the world. I can't understand how you think that somebody who is learning English can get away with directly translating something and assuming it is correct. You asked me "who are you to be the judge of what is correct or incorrect?", but I think the more appropriate question should be directed at the Chinese speaker, "Who are you to assume that what you say in Chinese is the same as what is said in a language that has nothing to do with yours?" Is that not defining ethnocentrism? If you were learning a new language, would you assume that the correctness of English should then be applied to whatever language it is you are learning? For your own sake, I hope you would abandon English syntax and semantics and let the native-speakers decide what is correct.
While this may be beyond the point, I should mention that the majority of the people I teach are children. I kind of am looking to make cookie-cutter speakers out of my students, because that's essentially how we communicate with other English-speakers around the world. It's like that saying that is something along the lines of "you have to know the rules before you can break them." You've taught swimming, so you know that before you teach a kid how to do dive or do a flip turn, they need to know how to float and breath properly. Similarly, I'm going to use an English dictionary and my own personal 24 years of experience to teach my students the worldwide accepted foundations and exact rules of the language (for example, that there is a clear difference between a "sister" and a "cousin") before I teach them how to watch a Wayans Bros movie.
Furthermore, in response to this point "If everyone spoke using words and meanings strictly from the dictionary, that would include some pretty boring conversations and no differences between cultures and areas" , I'm going to take the exact opposite point of view; the conversation would not be boring at all because each participant has an extremely large vocabulary to choose from, knowing full well that the listener will understand what they are saying. The conversation would be smooth and uninterrupted. If I, as an English teacher, and my many peers teaching English worldwide, let things such as "cousin," and "toast," slip by as acceptable speech under your suggested notion that "different cultures say different things," the English language would undergo a rapid evolution that would probably branch of into completely different languages. If I condone Chinese-English direct translations, where do I draw the line? Once I've given the pass to do so, Chinese English-speakers will walk around saying either "You good," "You very," or "You okay," instead of the traditional English greeting of "hello." If I don't correct my students' pronunciation when they say "mep" instead of "map," then I have 15 students who have just invented one of your so-called "different things." Then take into consideration how many people they speak to. If they each convince 2 people that their teacher said "mep" is acceptable, now there are 45 people saying "mep." The cycle continues, and one kid with really bad pronunciation accidentally said "nep," so now there are a branch of people saying "mep" and "nep." Say that happens with 50 different words, and now let's let these students speak with students from around the world, and you will be delighted to know that instead of "pretty boring conversations," you will have people speaking entirely different languages and not being able to communicate at all.
In essence, your entire comment is a contradiction. You seem to be implying that "in the English speaking world," not only is there a globally accepted dialect of English known as "Chinese English," but that Chinese-English direct translation should not be held within any boundaries, which would ultimately mean that they won't need English teachers to correct them. They would need only to rely on the very book you seem to have condemned: The Dictionary.
In conclusion, I only would like to ask for the name of the institution and for the email address of the instructor who teaches one of the courses you mentioned in the first sentence of your comment. I would like to ask how they figure "understanding different cultures" in any way means "let them speak English how they want."
Episode 2:
Step 1: Recognize the issue, Step 2: Make relevant arguments
"...words in both languages that appear to refer to the same object or concept on the surface, but actually refer to quite different things."
I understand what you believe to be true comes from your understanding of New York and Taiwan culture because these are the only places you have been.
"Different native English-speaking countries say different things." is not what I was saying at all. English-speaking people- whether native or not use different words, terminology even within the same country. If you go to the South or Midwest, they use completely different words and phrases than people in the East. There may be people in the United States that call regular bread toast - I am not sure. I know there are some places that think toast is simply warm bread. Either way, I believe and have been taught, you embrace different cultures and their languages rather than argue with children about what the "correct" way to say something is. Yes, they should have an understanding of different languages and meanings, and should be taught the different meanings based on where they are. People would be just as confused with a little girl talking about her "older sister" as well as the millions who call non-blood relatives "cousins". How do you teach children what we call soda is? Do you say it is pop or soda? Because a majority of Americans (not from the East Coast) call it Pop and others call all soda Coke.
"Many words in different languages give expression to culturally bound conceptual difference. Because of the differences between customs, natural environments religious and values, a word with the same definitions may carry differentconnotative meanings in different cultures."
"Because of the different historical backgrounds, geographical positions, religious belief, customs, life styles and value systems, native English speakers and Taiwanese have their own special interpretation of word meaning."
And speaking of the TOEIC exam, there have been numerous studies that prove how culturally biased these types of exams are. Yes, they determine the fate of these children, but that is ridiculous as there can never be a true international test that measures ones English-speaking ability. If you believe your job is to prepare them for this exam, I am sorry you are an educator. You should probably join the current U.S. administration as a policy-maker. Is a teachers job simply to prepare students for tests or to educate children and allow them to grow into independent, individual thinkers and problem-solvers?
I guess your belief is that the entire world should be rid of all cultural differences and we should all speak English with the same dialects, word meanings, and pronunciations.
Again, I have to thank you for the comments and feedback. It's led to some of the most worthwhile pieces of writing that have ever appeared on this blog.
I also have to thank you for helping me to find this blog, which puts into writing a lot of things that I've been pondering about the past few days. I can see why you only put in the quotes you thought were relevant to what you wanted to say, and didn't even bother citing these quotes; if anyone reads that whole blog entry, you'll find that most of the points contradict that of the comment in italics above (I'll get to that later).
Before I fully get into this, I just want to point out how hard it was to wade through this comment. It is chock full of really general statements such as "There may be people in the United States that call regular bread toast - I am not sure. I know there are some places that think toast is simply warmbread," and, "there have been numerous studies that prove how culturally biased these types of exams are." These types of statements, which suggest fact, can only be read as opinion because of their lack of specificity.
What also distracted me was the tangent about soda vs. pop vs. Coke. If you must know, I teach my kids football and soccer, favorite and favourite, shouldn't and musn't, etc. I let them know what regions use each word, which one I say, which one I will use for the remainder of my lesson, and then I move along. I am currently employed at two schools. One has a set curriculum of words that I need to teach, and the other I have more liberties, although it is very clear that it is a school teaching American English, and I was specifically told that if there is any doubt, teach what I, personally, would normally write or say. This is an entirely different topic though, because the issue we were originally addressing was that of direct Chinese-English translations, which have nothing to do with regional idiosyncrasies within the United States. So back to the point...
I do apologize for putting words in your mouth with this response, "Different native English-speaking countries say different things." You wrote "English-speaking people- whether native or not use different words, terminology even within the same country." I don't know if there is a black and white answer to this, but I'm going to stick with the idea that if the "not native-English speakers" that are using different English words, it's probably because they don't know the correct words. I'm learning Chinese, and personally speaking, I don't possess the audacity to invent new words, or idioms, or slang words in Chinese, solely based on my culture.
Speaking of culture, I'm going to borrow the quote you used for your argument, and see if I can also use it.
"Many words in different languages give expression to culturally bound conceptual difference. Because of the differences between customs, natural environments religious and values, a word with the same definitions may carry different connotative meanings in different cultures."
Agree, on all accounts. Different cultures and languages have difference meanings for the same word. This quote exemplifies the reason that I even have a job in Taiwan, and that job is to teach them the connotative meanings that come from my culture, not theirs. If they wanted to learn how to speak English to other Taiwanese people, they would hire Taiwanese English teachers, not foreigners.
From the exact paragraph from which you extracted the previous quote, I'd like to show you this one that you may have inadvertently overlooked:
Because of cultural differences, learning the connotative meanings of language is essential in achieving competence in another culture’s verbal code.
In this example, I'm replacing "another culture's verbal code" with the word "English." So to summarize, in order to master the English language, you need to know what it means to say "toast" to a native English speaker. Amongst themselves, the Taiwanese can say "toast" all day long and it's no problem. The moment they cross that cultural boundary, they should be aware of the connotative meaning of that word in English. On that same note:
A dog is man’s best friend heard in English conversation or seen in English writing. But in Taiwan, dogs are generally associated with unpleasantness. Dogs are very pejorative in meaning.
Again, I don't know if you intentionally didn't mention the rest of this article in order to prove your point, but here are the two sentences that appear DIRECTLY before the sentences you quoted (what you quoted is in italics).
ESL learners should aim at the international target culture. Since words are the basic component of a language. Because of the different historical backgrounds, geographical positions, religious belief, customs, life styles and value systems, native English speakers and Taiwanese have their own special interpretation of word meaning.
The section you quoted takes on a whole new meaning when it has been put back into the context it was originally intended for. That states pretty clearly that, although you have your own definition for the word, you should probably listen to your English teacher when he tells you "this piece of soft bread is not 'toast.'"
Only a few sentences later, we have the concluding paragraph for the entire article, which again, you conveniently decided to overlook:
Lastly, textbooks and language oral practice should be based on English or American culture. In Taiwan,
the aim of English learning is to help ESL learners to acquire intercultural communicative competence.
Therefore, EFL textbooks and language oral practice should reflect cultural contexts and include intercultural elements. It is expected teaching materials can raise learner’s awareness of intercultural issues and enable them to communicate effectively and appropriately with English in any variety of communicative contexts.
For those of you that did understand that, bear with me for a moment. That paragraph says, if I may put it into my own words, "Please refer to a native English speaker before assuming that a direct translation is correct."
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Here some things that I'll respond to, but aren't worth getting into too deeply because they either make no sense, or are irrelevant to anything mentioned in anything I've ever written in my blog:
- I don't consciously teach to the TOEIC or the TOEFL, but it just happens to be that both exams use the same proper English that I was brought up using. I teach English so that my students will be able to communicate globally using English, and allowing them to use Chinese-English would dramatically decrease the chances of that happening.
- Of course I don't think we should rid the world of all cultural differences.
- "I guess your belief is that...we should all speak English with the same dialects, word meanings, and pronunciations."
The other side to that is we could let all these differences continue to change English, but let them branch of into their own languages, and stop calling it English. That's what happened with the Romance Languages; all very similar, yet each have their individual traits.
- "I understand what you believe to be true comes from your understanding of New York and Taiwan culture because these are the only places you have been."
I'm not exactly sure what you were implying by this, I'm not sure why you didn't include the other two states I've lived in (I'll even settle for just adding 1 state), and I'm not sure how, after making this statement, you think spending 2 years in Hawaii (the only place you've lived that I haven't) makes you at all knowledgeable about teaching English as a Second Language, a field in which, as far as I know, you have zero experience in.
(The evidence presented by the prosecutor, which in turn was used by the defense:
and finally, Episode 3
4 Reasons Why You aren't an ESL Teacher
Here is the latest addition to the debate between a white middle class male English teacher, a 6 year old Taiwanese ESL student, and a white middle class female teacher (the comments keep getting deleted, but I received them in pieces, so I'm not sure if they are 100% accurate in terms of the intended
order of paragraphs):
[If you have no idea what's going on, start from the beginning.]
"I read all those other parts, but it would be dumb to quote the entire thing. and I understand the article differently than you. Again, there is no such thing as American culture. Culture in New York is different than North Dakota than in Missouri than South Carolina. So what do they base these wonderful texts on?? New York or California. No, sorry. white, middle class NY/CA.
i am not more experienced and traveled than you. I do however have the ability to look outside the box and see things other than what "the man above" says to be true. i also have had class after class on cultural differences, esol students, etc. Oh, yeah, and the fact I was actually educated on how to educate children??? And yes, I have lived my adult life in 3 different states. Furthering my evidence that it is impossible to base anything off of "American" because all three places I have lived (all in the U.S.) are dramatically different in their culture as well as language.
i am not more experienced and traveled than you. I do however have the ability to look outside the box and see things other than what "the man above" says to be true. i also have had class after class on cultural differences, esol students, etc. Oh, yeah, and the fact I was actually educated on how to educate children??? And yes, I have lived my adult life in 3 different states. Furthering my evidence that it is impossible to base anything off of "American" because all three places I have lived (all in the U.S.) are dramatically different in their culture as well as language.
calling a friend sister or cousin or whatever is not a big deal if you are trying to have them communicate and be fluent in English. What does arguing do for the child other than frustrate and discourage them? If they held a conversation with anyone in English, I doubt there would be much confusion. When you hear someone in America say "Hey sister" are you confused? Again, this is where our ideals are quite different because you believe in teaching to the book where I believe in respecting one's culture. Do they understand their girl sibling is their sister? Do they understand their friend is a friend? Yes... okay then who cares what they say. Sorry, the tests. Lets follow the way of the world and stress a 5 year old out because she calls her friend something different than her American teacher. As an educator I find it difficult to hear a child berated because they (using English words) said something different, but similar to what their teacher believes. As an English major, did you ever get points off because your teachers did not agree with your point?
every standardized test has cultural bias.
"I don't consciously teach to the TOEIC or the TOEFL, but it just happens to be that both exams use the same proper English that I was brought up using."
Exactly... you are a white male who lived on the east coast your whole life. these tests (as all standardized tests) are designed for people who speak "East coast or west coast" English. And the tests are biased against people who have liven in the U.S. for a number of years... hmm I wonder if they is because they are learning idioms rather than simply learning from the book. does this mean they stop using their own expressions? i sure hope not. I do not believe there is a globally universal understanding of English, nor should there be. Sure, the basic principles of the language, but there is beauty in differences around the country and around the world. In having conversations with people from somewhere else and saying, "we call this___. what do you call it?" It happens all over the country and the world and that is how it should be, in my opinion.
By denying "Chinese-English" words, you are basically saying their language or words are not good enough. So many words in English come from other languages. And I am not talking about won-ton type words. Words like cookie, golf, brick, shark. These are not American-English words. Of course, if your student was calling a boy a girl or something that does not make sense, I would understand the correction. But, as pointed out in the dictionary, she was actually saying the word in a correct way, just not YOUR correct way. Just like the toast thing, the actual definition of bread is the loaf. so if they call sliced bread toast or rolls or whatever... I mean really... is it a sub or a hoagie?? DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU ARE FROM! Therefore, I do not see the big deal other than that it is different from what you believe to be true."
every standardized test has cultural bias.
"I don't consciously teach to the TOEIC or the TOEFL, but it just happens to be that both exams use the same proper English that I was brought up using."
Exactly... you are a white male who lived on the east coast your whole life. these tests (as all standardized tests) are designed for people who speak "East coast or west coast" English. And the tests are biased against people who have liven in the U.S. for a number of years... hmm I wonder if they is because they are learning idioms rather than simply learning from the book. does this mean they stop using their own expressions? i sure hope not. I do not believe there is a globally universal understanding of English, nor should there be. Sure, the basic principles of the language, but there is beauty in differences around the country and around the world. In having conversations with people from somewhere else and saying, "we call this___. what do you call it?" It happens all over the country and the world and that is how it should be, in my opinion.
By denying "Chinese-English" words, you are basically saying their language or words are not good enough. So many words in English come from other languages. And I am not talking about won-ton type words. Words like cookie, golf, brick, shark. These are not American-English words. Of course, if your student was calling a boy a girl or something that does not make sense, I would understand the correction. But, as pointed out in the dictionary, she was actually saying the word in a correct way, just not YOUR correct way. Just like the toast thing, the actual definition of bread is the loaf. so if they call sliced bread toast or rolls or whatever... I mean really... is it a sub or a hoagie?? DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU ARE FROM! Therefore, I do not see the big deal other than that it is different from what you believe to be true."
1. "I do not believe there is a globally universal understanding of English, nor should there be."
Therein lies the heart of the problem. I do believe there should be "globally universal understanding of English." I'd be willing to bet that the estimated 1,000,000,000 people who are currently learning English would be pretty upset if they weren't able to communicate with the "One out of every five people on Earth," or 1,500,000,000 people that "can speak English to some level of competence." If I were you, I'd choose to leave that statement out of your cover letter if you ever apply for a job teaching English as a foreign or second language.
2. "I read all those other parts, but it would be dumb to quote the entire thing."
In my first point, I have two sections of linked text, that upon clicking them, it brings you to the page I'm citing as a source. All of your comments lack this basic instrument of credibility. As if that wasn't enough, there was an entire article that directly states that it disagrees with you, yet you still were able to pull (without referencing) quotes out of, put into a context that suits your argument, then go on to say "it would be dumb to quote the entire thing."
3. "As an educator I find it difficult to hear a child berated... "
This one is tricky because we were both brought up in the same areas, so presumably we should have the same general ideas on words and their definitions. However, whatever separate paths we took led us to different cultures, and consequently have led us to a misunderstanding (of the very nature I am arguing can be avoided) on the word "berated."
As I understand it, to "berate" someone is to give someone an oral beating. In my mind, I imagine a loud and angry voice. The situation in which you are referring to looks like this:
Teacher: "She's not your sister, she's your cousin."
Student: "No, she's my sister."
Teacher: "You don't have a sister."
In your eyes, that's viewed as a verbally abusive scolding. In my eyes, because I had the knowledge that the "sister" in question did not come from the same mother or father as my student, this was simply a correction.
If the girl had called her pet cat a "lion," I would have said "You don't have a lion."
I'm not sure if your use of the word "berate" comes from an interpretation that you've learned in your culture, or if you said it just to exaggerate and make me sound like a monster, but either way, that's reason enough to end this.
3. "Words like cookie, golf, brick, shark. These are not American-English words."
I'm pretty sure by "Amer.Eng." they mean "American English."
As for the other words, sure they come from other languages, but the reason is because English didn't already have a name for that particular thing. In the case of my students mistaken identity with her cousin, she simple didn't know there was an English name for cousin. That's because she's 6, not because she's trying to preserve Taiwanese culture through speaking English. Are you actually suggesting that in all cases, before checking to see if a foreign language has a more appropriate word, we should just use ours because it suits us better?
In Chinese, they often use the same word to talk about "cans" and "bottles." If I have a student holding an aluminum can of Coke, should I correct the student if he or she calls it a "bottle?" Is that what you mean by saying "By denying "Chinese-English" words, you are basically saying their language or words are not good enough." What I'm basically saying is "Hey, in English we actually have a special word for this. It's called a 'can.'"
4. This final, and most important reason that I'm finished with this debate is that you have no platform for your argument. You don't seem to consider the actual English learners in your English speaking free-for-all. They want to communicate with people. Since I've been in Taiwan, I've been in contact with people from that speak English from probably a dozen different countries. There was no problem with communication, and I'm using that as a basis for saying "You're damn right I'm from the east coast of America. The English that I learned there has now been tested with the English of others around and the world and the results show that the English I'm using and teaching can assure you the ability to communicate globally as well."
You have painted a beautiful picture of a very liberal teaching environment where anything goes and nobody is wrong. Should I consider throwing out all of my textbooks, flashcards, books, etc? How can I teach "apple" if I think that somewhere in the world, somebody calls it something else, and, according to you it doesn't even have to be in English!
I understand that the English is not as rigid and exact as mathematics, but if we were to put English on a scale between Math Class and Finger Painting, I'd say that the English Language falls closer to the side of "has rules and can be assessed."
To top it off, you don't even offer an alternative solution. You keep asking things like "sub or hoagie?" but you've never said what YOU would do, or what you think teachers SHOULD teach. Over the course of these comments, you have basically told me that the way I can be more tolerant of Taiwanese culture is to embrace whatever "Chinese-English" I hear. This is a very radical concept, probably more for me than you because I hear "Chinese-English" on a daily basis. Since these posts have started, I often think about not correcting my students when they say things like "Put where?", "Have ant," and "My home have" (I could go on and on with this) all on the notion that the very attempt at English speech has automatically become accepted as part of English syntax.
I guess I have 2 main points that I have been repeating: the first is that children shouldn't be encouraged to directly translate from their language (or at least not without correction). The second is that if anyone is going bother teaching English, there needs to be some continuity throughout the world. To illustrate the line of continuity, here is a conversation I've had with a friend:
Friend: ....at my mimi's house.
Me: Your what?
Friend: Mimi. I call my grandmother Mimi.
So if you want to call your sister your "father," your garbage collector your "uncle," or whatever, I guess I can't argue that. The point I'm trying to make is that both parties need to be able to trace it back to a single or few universally understood words and say things like "Well, he's not actually my uncle, but I call him that"(like the sub/hoagie people can both agree on a "sandwich").
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