"...words in both languages that appear to refer to the same object or concept on the surface, but actually refer to quite different things."
I understand what you believe to be true comes from your understanding of New York and Taiwan culture because these are the only places you have been.
"Different native English-speaking countries say different things." is not what I was saying at all. English-speaking people- whether native or not use different words, terminology even within the same country. If you go to the South or Midwest, they use completely different words and phrases than people in the East. There may be people in the United States that call regular bread toast - I am not sure. I know there are some places that think toast is simply warm bread. Either way, I believe and have been taught, you embrace different cultures and their languages rather than argue with children about what the "correct" way to say something is. Yes, they should have an understanding of different languages and meanings, and should be taught the different meanings based on where they are. People would be just as confused with a little girl talking about her "older sister" as well as the millions who call non-blood relatives "cousins". How do you teach children what we call soda is? Do you say it is pop or soda? Because a majority of Americans (not from the East Coast) call it Pop and others call all soda Coke.
"Many words in different languages give expression to culturally bound conceptual difference. Because of the differences between customs, natural environments religious and values, a word with the same definitions may carry differentconnotative meanings in different cultures."
"Because of the different historical backgrounds, geographical positions, religious belief, customs, life styles and value systems, native English speakers and Taiwanese have their own special interpretation of word meaning."
And speaking of the TOEIC exam, there have been numerous studies that prove how culturally biased these types of exams are. Yes, they determine the fate of these children, but that is ridiculous as there can never be a true international test that measures ones English-speaking ability. If you believe your job is to prepare them for this exam, I am sorry you are an educator. You should probably join the current U.S. administration as a policy-maker. Is a teachers job simply to prepare students for tests or to educate children and allow them to grow into independent, individual thinkers and problem-solvers?
I guess your belief is that the entire world should be rid of all cultural differences and we should all speak English with the same dialects, word meanings, and pronunciations.
Again, I have to thank you for the comments and feedback. It's led to some of the most worthwhile pieces of writing that have ever appeared on this blog.
I also have to thank you for helping me to find this blog, which puts into writing a lot of things that I've been pondering about the past few days. I can see why you only put in the quotes you thought were relevant to what you wanted to say, and didn't even bother citing these quotes; if anyone reads that whole blog entry, you'll find that most of the points contradict that of the comment in italics above (I'll get to that later).
Before I fully get into this, I just want to point out how hard it was to wade through this comment. It is chock full of really general statements such as "There may be people in the United States that call regular bread toast - I am not sure. I know there are some places that think toast is simply warm bread," and, "there have been numerous studies that prove how culturally biased these types of exams are." These types of statements, which suggest fact, can only be read as opinion because of their lack of specificity.
What also distracted me was the tangent about soda vs. pop vs. Coke. If you must know, I teach my kids football and soccer, favorite and favourite, shouldn't and musn't, etc. I let them know what regions use each word, which one I say, which one I will use for the remainder of my lesson, and then I move along. I am currently employed at two schools. One has a set curriculum of words that I need to teach, and the other I have more liberties, although it is very clear that it is a school teaching American English, and I was specifically told that if there is any doubt, teach what I, personally, would normally write or say. This is an entirely different topic though, because the issue we were originally addressing was that of direct Chinese-English translations, which have nothing to do with regional idiosyncrasies within the United States. So back to the point...
I do apologize for putting words in your mouth with this response, "Different native English-speaking countries say different things." You wrote "English-speaking people- whether native or not use different words, terminology even within the same country." I don't know if there is a black and white answer to this, but I'm going to stick with the idea that if the "not native-English speakers" that are using different English words, it's probably because they don't know the correct words. I'm learning Chinese, and personally speaking, I don't possess the audacity to invent new words, or idioms, or slang words in Chinese, solely based on my culture.
Speaking of culture, I'm going to borrow the quote you used for your argument, and see if I can also use it.
"Many words in different languages give expression to culturally bound conceptual difference. Because of the differences between customs, natural environments religious and values, a word with the same definitions may carry different connotative meanings in different cultures."
Agree, on all accounts. Different cultures and languages have difference meanings for the same word. This quote exemplifies the reason that I even have a job in Taiwan, and that job is to teach them the connotative meanings that come from my culture, not theirs. If they wanted to learn how to speak English to other Taiwanese people, they would hire Taiwanese English teachers, not foreigners.
From the exact paragraph from which you extracted the previous quote, I'd like to show you this one that you may have inadvertently overlooked:
Because of cultural differences, learning the connotative meanings of language is essential in achieving competence in another culture’s verbal code.
In this example, I'm replacing "another culture's verbal code" with the word "English." So to summarize, in order to master the English language, you need to know what it means to say "toast" to a native English speaker. Amongst themselves, the Taiwanese can say "toast" all day long and it's no problem. The moment they cross that cultural boundary, they should be aware of the connotative meaning of that word in English. On that same note:
A dog is man’s best friend heard in English conversation or seen in English writing. But in Taiwan, dogs are generally associated with unpleasantness. Dogs are very pejorative in meaning.
Again, I don't know if you intentionally didn't mention the rest of this article in order to prove your point, but here are the two sentences that appear DIRECTLY before the sentences you quoted (what you quoted is in italics).
ESL learners should aim at the international target culture. Since words are the basic component of a language. Because of the different historical backgrounds, geographical positions, religious belief, customs, life styles and value systems, native English speakers and Taiwanese have their own special interpretation of word meaning.
The section you quoted takes on a whole new meaning when it has been put back into the context it was originally intended for. That states pretty clearly that, although you have your own definition for the word, you should probably listen to your English teacher when he tells you "this piece of soft bread is not 'toast.'"
Only a few sentences later, we have the concluding paragraph for the entire article, which again, you conveniently decided to overlook:
Lastly, textbooks and language oral practice should be based on English or American culture. In Taiwan,
the aim of English learning is to help ESL learners to acquire intercultural communicative competence.
Therefore, EFL textbooks and language oral practice should reflect cultural contexts and include intercultural elements. It is expected teaching materials can raise learner’s awareness of intercultural issues and enable them to communicate effectively and appropriately with English in any variety of communicative contexts.
For those of you that did understand that, bear with me for a moment. That paragraph says, if I may put it into my own words, "Please refer to a native English speaker before assuming that a direct translation is correct."
Here some things that I'll respond to, but aren't worth getting into too deeply because they either make no sense, or are irrelevant to anything mentioned in anything I've ever written in my blog:
- I don't consciously teach to the TOEIC or the TOEFL, but it just happens to be that both exams use the same proper English that I was brought up using. I teach English so that my students will be able to communicate globally using English, and allowing them to use Chinese-English would dramatically decrease the chances of that happening.
- Of course I don't think we should rid the world of all cultural differences.
- "I guess your belief is that...we should all speak English with the same dialects, word meanings, and pronunciations."
The other side to that is we could let all these differences continue to change English, but let them branch of into their own languages, and stop calling it English. That's what happened with the Romance Languages; all very similar, yet each have their individual traits.
- "I understand what you believe to be true comes from your understanding of New York and Taiwan culture because these are the only places you have been."
I'm not exactly sure what you were implying by this, I'm not sure why you didn't include the other two states I've lived in (I'll even settle for just adding 1 state), and I'm not sure how, after making this statement, you think spending 2 years in Hawaii (the only place you've lived that I haven't) makes you at all knowledgeable about teaching English as a Second Language, a field in which, as far as I know, you have zero experience in.
(The evidence presented by the prosecutor, which in turn was used by the defense:
5 comments:
I am glad you were able to retrieve it because I was unable to find it in my history anywhere.
I read all those other parts, but it would be dumb to quote the entire thing. and I understand the article differently than you. Again, there is no such thing as American culture. Culture in New York is different than North Dakota than in Missouri than South Carolina. So what do they base these wonderful texts on?? New York or California. No, sorry. white, middle class NY/CA.
i am not more experienced and traveled than you. I do however have the ability to look outside the box and see things other than what "the man above" says to be true. i also have had class after class on cultural differences, esol students, etc. Oh, yeah, and the fact I was actually educated on how to educate children??? And yes, I have lived my adult life in 3 different states. Furthering my evidence that it is impossible to base anything off of "American" because all three places I have lived (all in the U.S.) are dramatically different in their culture as well as language.
calling a friend sister or cousin or whatever is not a big deal if you are trying to have them communicate and be fluent in English. What does arguing do for the child other than frustrate and discourage them? If they held a conversation with anyone in English, I doubt there would be much confusion. When you hear someone in America say "Hey sister" are you confused? Again, this is where our ideals are quite different because you believe in teaching to the book where I believe in respecting one's culture. Do they understand their girl sibling is their sister? Do they understand their friend is a friend? Yes... okay then who cares what they say. Sorry, the tests. Lets follow the way of the world and stress a 5 year old out because she calls her friend something different than her American teacher. As an educator I find it difficult to hear a child berated because they (using English words) said something different, but similar to what their teacher believes. As an English major, did you ever get points off because your teachers did not agree with your point?
every standardized test has cultural bias.
"I don't consciously teach to the TOEIC or the TOEFL, but it just happens to be that both exams use the same proper English that I was brought up using."
Exactly... you are a white male who lived on the east coast your whole life. these tests (as all standardized tests) are designed for people who speak "East coast or west coast" English. And the tests are biased against people who have liven in the U.S. for a number of years... hmm I wonder if they is because they are learning idioms rather than simply learning from the book. does this mean they stop using their own expressions? i sure hope not. I do not believe there is a globally universal understanding of English, nor should there be. Sure, the basic principles of the language, but there is beauty in differences around the country and around the world. In having conversations with people from somewhere else and saying, "we call this___. what do you call it?" It happens all over the country and the world and that is how it should be, in my opinion.
By denying "Chinese-English" words, you are basically saying their language or words are not good enough. So many words in English come from other languages. And I am not talking about won-ton type words. Words like cookie, golf, brick, shark. These are not American-English words. Of course, if your student was calling a boy a girl or something that does not make sense, I would understand the correction. But, as pointed out in the dictionary, she was actually saying the word in a correct way, just not YOUR correct way. Just like the toast thing, the actual definition of bread is the loaf. so if they call sliced bread toast or rolls or whatever... I mean really... is it a sub or a hoagie?? DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU ARE FROM! Therefore, I do not see the big deal other than that it is different from what you believe to be true.
sorry, not biased against. biased toward. The tests are less based on knowledge of English than knowledge of a certain part of the country's English.
why does your blog delete my comments?
this was here before..... just as my other comment was but somehow got deleted:
calling a friend sister or cousin or whatever is not a big deal if you are trying to have them communicate and be fluent in English. What does arguing do for the child other than frustrate and discourage them? If they held a conversation with anyone in English, I doubt there would be much confusion. When you hear someone in America say "Hey sister" are you confused? Again, this is where our ideals are quite different because you believe in teaching to the book where I believe in respecting one's culture. Do they understand their girl sibling is their sister? Do they understand their friend is a friend? Yes... okay then who cares what they say. Sorry, the tests. Lets follow the way of the world and stress a 5 year old out because she calls her friend something different than her American teacher. As an educator I find it difficult to hear a child berated because they (using English words) said something different, but similar to what their teacher believes. As an English major, did you ever get points off because your teachers did not agree with your point?
every standardized test has cultural bias.
"I don't consciously teach to the TOEIC or the TOEFL, but it just happens to be that both exams use the same proper English that I was brought up using."
Exactly... you are a white male who lived on the east coast your whole life. these tests (as all standardized tests) are designed for people who speak "East coast or west coast" English. And the tests are biased against people who have liven in the U.S. for a number of years... hmm I wonder if they is because they are learning idioms rather than simply learning from the book. does this mean they stop using their own expressions? i sure hope not. I do not believe there is a globally universal understanding of English, nor should there be. Sure, the basic principles of the language, but there is beauty in differences around the country and around the world. In having conversations with people from somewhere else and saying, "we call this___. what do you call it?" It happens all over the country and the world and that is how it should be, in my opinion.
By denying "Chinese-English" words, you are basically saying their language or words are not good enough. So many words in English come from other languages. And I am not talking about won-ton type words. Words like cookie, golf, brick, shark. These are not American-English words. Of course, if your student was calling a boy a girl or something that does not make sense, I would understand the correction. But, as pointed out in the dictionary, she was actually saying the word in a correct way, just not YOUR correct way. Just like the toast thing, the actual definition of bread is the loaf. so if they call sliced bread toast or rolls or whatever... I mean really... is it a sub or a hoagie?? DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU ARE FROM! Therefore, I do not see the big deal other than that it is different from what you believe to be true.
no need to make that correction. I understood. I think somewhere in the world people say "biased against" when they mean "biased towards." Who am I to judge?
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